Thursday I was at a local turkey shoot and ran into a friend I had not seen in a while. We talked between rounds and he said, "I got those pictures of the knife my daddy found I was telling you of a while back. Let me show them to you." He did. This grouping has been in a safety deposit box for years, but he took it right before his daddy passed. His daddy was about seven years old and was playing on his maternal grandparents place near where I was raised in 1948 when he made this rare discovery. He and a couple of other kids were playing around some large bluff shelters and found this____________ (looks like knife, sheath, and handle to me). I have been interested in native history and a hunter of "arrowheads" or "Indian Rocks" (points, blades, scrapers, drills, etc.) most of my life. I think I found my first in our garden spot when I was six. Back when we and other people still planted row crops, I would walk the fields searching for points. I have found several while plowing. I have found them on creek banks and under shelters. If I ever get around any bare or disturbed ground now, my flint eye kicks into hyper-drive. My prize finds are a point dating to 10,000 BP and a greenstone celt (axe) dating to about 1,200 BP. I never considered myself a serious collector by any means, but have been in the presence of some and have known a few. I must say, I have never seen anything found locally that would come close in comparison to this gem/find. I would be interested in any insight regarding any aspect of this. I did not ask, but I do not believe he would sell it. I would be curious as to a value and an age. It is rare when anything not bone or stone from prehistoric times is found in the climate conditions of north Alabama.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend and try to stay away from the leftovers if possible. LOL
Jeffery
I found a stone axe head in some fieldstone landscaping once and also had a stone palm socket that I was told was part of a bow drill set up. I lost them at some point in my late childhood. Hopefully they will turn up for someone else in the future. I always get a giggle out of old tools, wood, stone or steel.
ReplyDeleteThat’s a spectacular piece of history, I wish I still had the cigar boxes of arrowheads and pieces of long points from my area of the Wilson Bend in Winston County.
ReplyDeleteI think most growing up locally had a similar "box". I wish I had all I have found in my lifetime, but time and moves have misplaced many that I hope will be found again someday. There was one spot atop a bluff when we were building Lakeshore where the ground had been "disturbed" by timber cutters. This was a flatter spot they had chosen to load logs. The area was about a half an acre in size. In the course of four years, I picked up 22 points and a half a coffee can full of flint chips and pottery shards there. That was 20 years ago now. Like the natives they never thought about their lives changing or their "people" vanishing, so are we.
DeleteJeffery, I grew up in New England , coastal MA south shore, in the 60's-70's. We lived on a lane and across the stone wall was a farm, Ford's Stony Brook Farm. Proprietor was Henry C Ford III. He was in his 70s -80s at that time. He had the most amazing collection of pre-historic artefacts from clearing his fields in his barn and would let us come and look anytime. He taught us a lot about what was what and what to look for.
DeleteIf I was to make a guess at what I see there, it is an arrow point, the bone nock at the end of the shaft, and a bowstring made of something durable, all tangled and aged in place. The scene is missing only the wooden parts of shaft and bow that would have gone to dust. With a point that size, it was surely for large game. I would give my left nut (rarely used these days) to have it radiocarbon dated, and would bet it is very old.
I hope Irish is well, and I presume he is on an extended Honey-Do vacation from screen time... }:o)
Irish knows me as "Known Associate", and we have exchanged many messages during the Covid fraud and since, though we have not met in person, yet we are only a couple hours apart.
Paul
Thanks Paul. That was a great story and what an awesome neighbor to have too!
DeleteAnon commented below and sent this link. It offered some possibilities.
https://www.archaeologysouthwest.org/2016/09/07/hands-on-archaeology-how-to-haft-a-point-into-a-foreshaft/
What a stunning find!
ReplyDeleteCheck out these mondacious MoFo's
ReplyDeletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KAJIknDj-bI&t=195s&pp=ygUlU3dvcmRzIG1hZGUgYnkgYWR2YW5jZWQgY2l2aWxpemF0aW9uPw%3D%3D
There are some YUGE axe heads in there.
Google up info about the neolithic quarries in the Dover TN vicinity... source of high-quality 'Dover Brown' chert.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.academia.edu/3496744/Discovery_and_Early_Investigations_of_the_Dover_Quarries_by_Parmenio_E_Cox_and_Warren_K_Moorehead_1926_1932
DeleteFound a perfect bird point but that looks like a spearhead
ReplyDeleteBP . . . before Puppies?
ReplyDeleteBefore Prometheus?
DeleteHadn't heard that one before. Brave AI says:
Before Present
calendar era
“Dates BP” refers to radiocarbon years before present, where “present” is defined as January 1, 1950. This dating system is used in archaeology, geology, and other fields to measure the age of organic materials and events in the past.
Key Points:
Radiocarbon dating: The method uses the decay rate of carbon-14 (14C) to estimate the age of organic materials.
Half-life: 14C has a half-life of 5,730 years, meaning that every 5,730 years, half of the original 14C will have decayed.
Calibration: To convert radiocarbon years to calendar years, scientists use calibration curves that account for variations in 14C levels in the atmosphere over time.
BP (Before Present): Dates BP are expressed as a number of years before 1950, with 1950 being the reference point.
Uncertainty: Radiocarbon dates often come with an uncertainty range, reflecting the variability in 14C levels and the complexity of the calibration process.
Examples:
5568 BP: This date would correspond to approximately 3619 BCE (Before Common Era) or 2454 BCE (Before Christ).
9000 BP: This date would correspond to approximately 8000 BCE.
Why “BP” instead of “BC/CE”?
The use of “BP” instead of “BC/CE” (Before Christ/Common Era) is intentional. “BP” is a more neutral and scientifically accurate term, as it avoids referencing a specific religious figure (Jesus Christ) and acknowledges the limitations of radiocarbon dating. Additionally, “BP” allows for easier comparison and communication across different cultures and traditions.
In Conclusion
Dates BP provide a standardized and widely accepted way to express the age of organic materials and events in the past, using radiocarbon dating and calibration curves. Understanding the principles and limitations of this system is essential for accurate interpretation and communication of archaeological and geological findings.
I bet the original owner of that magnificent piece was mighty pissed when it was lost. I wonder how the tang was broken off.
ReplyDeleteNemo
You would think. I have a friend that has limited experience out of doors. It amazes him that Indians would leave such a valuable tool laying about as if they were common. Flint/chert isn't native here and was carried in as a trade item, etc.
DeleteWhen asking how a a blade or point was broken, remember the work involved in making these items. When a blade broke, the pieces were sometimes reworked to smaller pieces, especially on seasonal hunts far away from home. They're on the road and can't give attention they normally would. They often left home with pre-forms (rough outs). The people often left caches of chert in seasonal hunting grounds in case their success was such that they ran low or out of their most effective pieces. Basically recyclers and...wait for it...preppers!
ReplyDeleteBe careful of the legalities, I mean one minute your Peanut the squirrel living your best life and then, poof you're killed to "save" you.
ReplyDeleteYep. The Creek/Muscogee nation may want the Feds to have their artifacts returned.
DeleteFrom an archaeological prospective, the sheathing is probably just as important as the point itself. That is probably a paleolithic (8000 to 12000 BP) spear point. Back in the late 80's when I was working as an archaeologist it was possible to get up to a thousand dollars an inch for certain Paleo spear points. Your milage may verry.
ReplyDeleteIt's a spear point. The defining features are length and base. That little stick is what was used to haft the point to a shaft. The length suggests it may have also be used as a knife. To one who recognizes it, the weave of the scabbard may give a better clue to when it was last used. Certainly C14 on that organic material would, too. I think the base is unusual for the length, it may have been reworked, idk. It may not have been made in Al. This is my go to source to identify projectile points: https://www.projectilepoints.net/. A museum, university, or a large local CRM firm could give your pal a more detailed analysis. Guessing, made 5 - 9kya. That menagerie is priceless to an archaeologist.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the insight. I am not sure I understand about how the point would connect using a haft to the shaft???
DeleteHow was the small piece of wood that is about 3.5" long with a notch cut into it come into play?
Also, projectilepoints.net is great. I had gone there earlier and tried to match up the point. I was going with a unusually long Benton, though I am far from certain. I think 6,000 BP is a good guess on the age, but it might be older. I believe the point is much older than the sheath. It is hard to for me to believe that that organic material could survive 6k years in a damp and musty bluff shelter where outside condition run from near tropical rainforest to sub-Artic to drought conditions (normal north Alabama weather).
My terminology is off, but have a look here for an example. https://www.archaeologysouthwest.org/2016/09/07/hands-on-archaeology-how-to-haft-a-point-into-a-foreshaft/. I was thinking Benton, too. But the base is notched a bit different. Agreed about age of sheath vs blade, and environment ... that's why I mentioned last used (sheath), not manufactured (blade). Considering those thoughts explains why I speculate it didn't originate in Al and might be a bit retouched. Just guessing. I'm a generalist, not a lithics expert. But what a find! Thanks for posting.
DeleteAgain, thanks for your insight. I am not sure there is terminology for the notched stick, but I visited the page and understand. The point also resembles a Deli, but not sure and that would make it 2,000-3,500 BP. We know tools/points were sometimes re-purposed. Other than the stem, this point doesn't look to be missing much. Like greenstone, flint is not native here and had to be brought in from SE Tennessee or from the the Columbus, GA area as the nearest sources. This point could have been made far away and brought here and traded. There was an elderly lady (bear claw necklace) that lived near me and she and another woman hunted rocks all their lives. The Alabama Dept. of History has been out twice to photograph/catalog artifacts in their collections. She once showed me a greenstone pipe that had ten rings carved around its stem and bowl. Both have passed now. She told me once she had never sold anything and would not. She said her kids would have to decide what to do with her collection once she passed.
DeleteYou comments about arrowheads, drill points, pottery, etc. are all resonant with my world as well. Excellent amateur studies can be started with findings and the imagination is a great room for storytelling around each. My grandad accidently uncovered a skeleton under an outcropping as he took shelter from a summer storm. Later dated to 2000 BC there were numerous items found with the burial, including a point I saved from the museum's list.
ReplyDeleteThe specifics of your post will be an interesting journey! Many thanks for sharing.
You are welcome and thank you for sharing the story of your daddy. Many years ago, a friend of mine was digging/sifting with her mother under a small bluff shelter when they discovered the skeleton of an adolescent boy. The skull had the long sloping forehead that had been formed when the boy was an infant. Buried with him were several points. Around the boy's neck was a bearclaw necklace with 22 claws with a hole bored through the fat end. There was trace of what had been part of the string, but as she brushed close to fully uncover the relic, the cordage turned to dust. The Indian is still laying as he was, but the necklace is hanging on a wall in a nice display frame.
DeleteI placed the necklace on the boy in a previous life
DeleteProbably mashed his young skull between two boards and gave him that slope too!
DeleteWe don’t talk about that part. - Chief Tecumseh 1800’s or so
DeleteGot interested in point hunting the last few years, heard said they heat treated the stone in fire and that’s what gives it its glaze sheen. Found several knap shards but no points. Primarily hunting the Arkansas River bed.
ReplyDelete"I looked in a thousand garbage cans before finding a meal once". They were there. I am sure you will eventually. I have a friend who walks creeks and riverbanks in IN and he has a pretty nice collection he picked up doing that.
DeleteI just need to put more time in, kinda lazy these days and walking not as easy at it used to be
DeleteHeat-treating was for low-quality lithic materials. Dr one properly, it altered the crystalline structure of some cherts to make working them more conducive to flaking off conchoidal chips to achieve those sharp edges. Heat- treating often resulted in a color change as well. Dover Brown and KY Blue cherts, both locally abundant here in my current area, were high-quality, and did not require heat treatment.
DeleteHaving done some amateur flint knapping, im often amazed that the Indians in my native east-central AL were able to fashion any points from the crappy amorphous quartz that was available locally. That said, over the years, I've found several points that were not made from local native materials, and were definitely made from imported/traded-for flint/chert.
I bought acreage in Arkansas and found an arrowhead on the dirt driveway that has been driven on since 1938
ReplyDeleteI have bird hunted in parts of KS, NE, IA, and SD in and around plowed fields. I always looked while walking/hunting, but never found a chip of flint. It isn't that way here in the hills as I stated earlier. Just about anywhere the ground has been disturbed within in a a ten mile radius of where I live a person can find flint chips and/or points. I have lived in the same place for 32 years and have found four points in my front yard in that time. It is even better rock hunting down in the "valley". I have a friend that inherited some land about 40 miles north in the TN River Valley. It is farmland and it has three mounds on it. He regularly finds stuff in the plowed fields and runs a tiller over some areas near creeks/low spots where the big tractors don't plow. He has found a lot of very cool stuff doing this, including some effigies.
ReplyDeletePlowed fields have been glory holes for some
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ReplyDeleteVeddy eentarestink! Keep up the conversation you guys. I ain't found shit, but my neighbor has a ton of various points from western, middle Tennessee. Lots of indian activity around here, pre settlers (1790 ish).
ReplyDelete