Sadly, water is the ash of combustion. You need a method to break the H2O bonds using less energy than the energy you get when they recombine (H2 burns). Ypu can't put in X and expect to get X++. Thats why the examiner was there. To figure out the energy input. He would have had a perpetual motion machine, water in, water out + energy. The patent office does not patent perpetual motion systems.
Same applies to the green energy scam. Solar panels generally product less energy in their lifetime than the energy required to acquire and process the raw materials and fabricate the unit. Windmills are not far behind. If you can't peform an energy analysis, how do you know? The cost of the energy produced when compared to other methods. So in the vain hope that raising the price of natural gas an oil to absurd levels makes green energy more "attactive", just what do you think happens to the energy required to harvest the materials and fabricate the units? Duh -- it goes up to and the cat continues to chase its tail while the middle class is bled out.
Well, the tin foil shortage that occurred during Covid has abated, so feel free to add a layer or three. I do note however that they have once again decreased the thickness of the products offered. Heavy Duty AL foil is now the thickness of what used to be regular AL foil and regular is so thin it is more fragile than tissue paper, so you might need several layers to accomplish the desired increase shielding effect. ;-)).
When I saw the Dymo labels, I knew there was something wrong ;) 1970's labeling technology doesn't belong in a twenty first century hydrogen generator. Can yo even get labels for those anymore?
A Faraday cage would be handy for an EMP, but not much else. We had a Faraday cage at Tennessee Tech so we could align equipment because of a radio station nearby.
WAY WAY WAY beyond my paygrade or Intelligence. At least he was doing something that kept him positive and alive. To that I give the Mans memory a Hat Tip and Respect.
Al is so yesterday, it has to be my-metal. Funny how that idea of burning water comes up regular intervals, always as impossible but still somebody claims it works. Sigh ...
This type of nonsense has been around for at least 40 years and every time I see this sort of thing (every 2 or 3 years) someone has come up with an even more complicated contraption. Can you extract hydrogen gas from water? Of course, but not nearly enough to produce enough energy to move your car in real time. Can you run a piston engine on hydrogen gas? Yes, but you need a lot of hydrogen, and a piston engine is crazy inefficient burning it. There are people working on hydrogen engines, but the tech is not ready yet.
ONFO: with respect, (yah Brownshoe...) if hydrogen weren't flammable it would make a crappy fuel. As an aside, burning hydrogen is darn near invisible; the visually exciting part of the Hindenburg incident was due to the flammable coating on the skin.
It also is such a small molecule that it diffuses through just about anything ... solid metals, ceramics, even glass. Which makes it very difficult to store over long periods of time.
From a gear-head standpoint, if you burn that stuff with excess oxygen or the right amount of oxygen, you can have a problem with high combustion temperatures - which can damage an engine depending on size and power output. The top speed of the SR71 was limited by the combustion temperature of carbon-based fuels [Ben Rich]. Guess what burns hotter than carbon?
The first giveaway that a water "burning" system is bogus is the use of an air intake. You already have the perfect amount of oxygen sitting right there. You need no more. So what’s up with the air intake? With a water burning system you could, theoretically, send a rocket up with a water tank and nothing else. This works if you’re MythBusters and you create BLEVE using a hot water heater... but I digress.
If you do insist on using an air intake, you now add nitrogen to the party and those pesky nitrous oxides can form due to the high combustion temperatures.
Let us not forget the various people who have discovered a 100 to 200 mpg carburetor only to be silenced or bought out. Except if you look at the energy in a gallon of gas, translate that to usable work with a reasonable thermal efficiency, and take into account nasty things like rolling resistance and drag, you are down to a moped – and still short of 100.
Anonymous, many moons ago we did a real-world-physics analysis of 100 to 200 mpg carbuerators and rapidly figured out there ain't enough kcal in gas for 100 to 200 MPG in a gallon of gas. This was in Engineering Physics classes... Electrolysis of (pure!) water is also a losing proposition, energy-wise. Input > output, TANSTAAFL.
Most people can't do the math or have the physics/chemistry knowledge to actually analyze claims like this and realize that smoke is being blown up their exhaust orofice at an ever-increasing rate.
We have successfully raised a nation of edumazkated Idjits.
Yes, a true hero. No question! ————— “You do need electrolysis. What my system has done is take advantage of THE RESIDUE OF ELECTROLYSIS.” (t = 1:10-1:23 of the long video in the linked article.
I have no idea of what “residue” he’s talking about, I can’t imagine any being good for his engine. (I assume he’s not referring to Hydrogen, but to some particulate, otherwise why would he need agitation?)
Also, note that many “greenies” are (occasionally correctly) worried about water shortages. And if everyone is running their cars on water (assuming it could be done), where is that water going to come from?
There’s a reason why college students need to have thermodynamics pounded into their heads. It’s just not intuitively obvious enough, even for a bright and technically handy (and very courageous and decent) person to come up with on his own.
I’m guessing he was hoodwinked into it by people who know it can’t be done - note the name of his company begins with “AWS.” Here’s what that means.
Ironic that a law enforcement officer would try to violate the law of thermodynamics that strictly forbids getting something for nothing. More proof that none of us are immune to a sophisticated scam.
I knew a guy who was experimenting with a hydrogen generator on his truck. He quit after several tries and several instances of singing his facial hair off...
For all you metallic hat wearing individuals out there remember one very important thing; a metal object is an antenna. When it is grounded, it is a shield. So, remember to run a ground strap from your foil hat down to the sole of each foot so that you are grounded as you walk. Absent grounding, the metal hat acts as an antenna and can amplify energy in and out.
Anon@709 Nitpick: the antenna will redirect, not amplify energy No free lunch. Yeah, I'm being pedantic, I blame the tequila. On-topic: heck yeah, a combo of O2 and H2 will burn like crazy! Too bad all the real-world physics thingies get in the way of the would-inventor's dream.
I disagree with the PhD's. While their statements are correct there are some assumptions. I haven't studied this thing in detail, but in general, if batteries are used to produce hydrogen via electroless, this system will work until the batteries are discharged. You can therefore keep going until you either run out of water or the batteries are completely discharged and no longer produce hydrogen. Perpetual motion would be using the alternator , perhaps through an inverter, to produce the hydrogen from electroless. I'm using my phone so forgive extra spaces, etc. This guy's concept is not useless as one could consider discharged batteries as a consumable like burned or combusted fuel.
The presence of hydrogen gas indicates the battery is being overcharged. The chemistry is no longer completely reversible and water needs to be added. Read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery
About half-way down you will see the following: Overcharging with high charging voltages generates oxygen and hydrogen gas by electrolysis of water, which bubbles out and is lost. The design of some types of lead–acid battery allows the electrolyte level to be inspected and topped up with pure water to replace any that has been lost this way.
Was living in Reno in late 80's and Reno gazette journal ran an article about a scientist in Spark,NV had developed such a system, if I recall this fella was the one who figured out how to turn sawdust into wood pellets, he had successfully figured out how to do it and said he would not sell his invention to anyone and offered to convert anyone's auto for I think $1500.00 he had a catalyst that had to be added in order to change the water to hydrogen, the city of Reno took him up on it and they converted a city bus to run on water, I remember seeing that bus and they had an s-10 Chevy chase truck to follow it around in case of breakdowns or assistance, if i remember right the bus made so much power it was putting a strain on running gear, then Caterpillar wanted to test it out on their engines an eventually the US military came knocking an never heard any more about it, if I remember this scientist died suddenly of a mysterious incident, I have tried to google and can find any trace of this article, so maybe i just was just dreaming.
Just came back here and saw the big comment number (there were only about 8 when I commented before) so I checked it out. About the normal range from "this is BS" to "Yeah, my neighbor's cousin's old gym teacher did this then he disappeared without a trace!".
Again, this has been around longer than that Nigerian Prince. As with most utter scams there is a grain of truth, you can extract hydrogen gas from water, but the math here does not work at all. Running a piston engine on hydrogen requires a shit ton more than you could EVER produce with a little homemade kit, several orders of magnitude more.
Not only does this particular version not work, none of them work because it cannot be done, not even in Nevada.
A true hero.
ReplyDeleteSadly, water is the ash of combustion. You need a method to break the H2O bonds using less energy than the energy you get when they recombine (H2 burns). Ypu can't put in X and expect to get X++. Thats why the examiner was there. To figure out the energy input. He would have had a perpetual motion machine, water in, water out + energy. The patent office does not patent perpetual motion systems.
Same applies to the green energy scam. Solar panels generally product less energy in their lifetime than the energy required to acquire and process the raw materials and fabricate the unit. Windmills are not far behind. If you can't peform an energy analysis, how do you know? The cost of the energy produced when compared to other methods. So in the vain hope that raising the price of natural gas an oil to absurd levels makes green energy more "attactive", just what do you think happens to the energy required to harvest the materials and fabricate the units? Duh -- it goes up to and the cat continues to chase its tail while the middle class is bled out.
-- which is the actual plan by the way.
As a MIT ScD in chemical engineering, I approve of this comment.
DeleteMine is from Carnegie Mellon, and I also
Deleteapprove.
Even though my BS, ChE is from lowly Rutgers (before it became woke and almost before electricity), I also approve of this comment.
DeleteSteve the Engineer
Well, the tin foil shortage that occurred during Covid has abated, so feel free to add a layer or three. I do note however that they have once again decreased the thickness of the products offered. Heavy Duty AL foil is now the thickness of what used to be regular AL foil and regular is so thin it is more fragile than tissue paper, so you might need several layers to accomplish the desired increase shielding effect. ;-)).
ReplyDeleteNemo
When I saw the Dymo labels, I knew there was something wrong ;) 1970's labeling technology doesn't belong in a twenty first century hydrogen generator. Can yo even get labels for those anymore?
ReplyDeleteWow, thats it for ya huh.
Deletecopper hat more effective
ReplyDeleteChicken Wire crown ?
DeleteI am now searching for a WW I military helmet.
ReplyDeleteps The shooters first victim was a white girl according to the brief clip that was shown and shut down.
A Faraday cage is lighter and just as effective. More attractive too. And already for sale on Amazon! https://tinyurl.com/mr26bhve
ReplyDeleteAnd by 'effective' I mean 'useless'.
"And by 'effective' I mean 'useless'." Just like face masks for viruses.
DeleteCDC: "It's safe and effective!"
DeleteA Faraday cage would be handy for an EMP, but not much else. We had a Faraday cage at Tennessee Tech so we could align equipment because of a radio station nearby.
DeleteWAY WAY WAY beyond my paygrade or Intelligence.
ReplyDeleteAt least he was doing something that kept him positive and alive.
To that I give the Mans memory a Hat Tip and Respect.
Al is so yesterday, it has to be my-metal. Funny how that idea of burning water comes up regular intervals, always as impossible but still somebody claims it works. Sigh ...
ReplyDeletecurious about the spark plugs myself.
ReplyDeleteThis type of nonsense has been around for at least 40 years and every time I see this sort of thing (every 2 or 3 years) someone has come up with an even more complicated contraption. Can you extract hydrogen gas from water? Of course, but not nearly enough to produce enough energy to move your car in real time. Can you run a piston engine on hydrogen gas? Yes, but you need a lot of hydrogen, and a piston engine is crazy inefficient burning it. There are people working on hydrogen engines, but the tech is not ready yet.
ReplyDeleteSo, No Sale
Concur with Matthew... And hydrogen in gaseous form is EXTREMELY explosive... Hindenburg anyone???
ReplyDeleteONFO: with respect, (yah Brownshoe...) if hydrogen weren't flammable it would make a crappy fuel. As an aside, burning hydrogen is darn near invisible; the visually exciting part of the Hindenburg incident was due to the flammable coating on the skin.
DeleteIt also is such a small molecule that it diffuses through just about anything ... solid metals, ceramics, even glass. Which makes it very difficult to store over long periods of time.
DeleteFrom a gear-head standpoint, if you burn that stuff with excess oxygen or the right amount of oxygen, you can have a problem with high combustion temperatures - which can damage an engine depending on size and power output. The top speed of the SR71 was limited by the combustion temperature of carbon-based fuels [Ben Rich]. Guess what burns hotter than carbon?
DeleteThe first giveaway that a water "burning" system is bogus is the use of an air intake. You already have the perfect amount of oxygen sitting right there. You need no more. So what’s up with the air intake? With a water burning system you could, theoretically, send a rocket up with a water tank and nothing else. This works if you’re MythBusters and you create BLEVE using a hot water heater... but I digress.
If you do insist on using an air intake, you now add nitrogen to the party and those pesky nitrous oxides can form due to the high combustion temperatures.
Let us not forget the various people who have discovered a 100 to 200 mpg carburetor only to be silenced or bought out. Except if you look at the energy in a gallon of gas, translate that to usable work with a reasonable thermal efficiency, and take into account nasty things like rolling resistance and drag, you are down to a moped – and still short of 100.
Damn physics / thermo
Anonymous, many moons ago we did a real-world-physics analysis of 100 to 200 mpg carbuerators and rapidly figured out there ain't enough kcal in gas for 100 to 200 MPG in a gallon of gas. This was in Engineering Physics classes...
DeleteElectrolysis of (pure!) water is also a losing proposition, energy-wise. Input > output, TANSTAAFL.
Most people can't do the math or have the physics/chemistry knowledge to actually analyze claims like this and realize that smoke is being blown up their exhaust orofice at an ever-increasing rate.
We have successfully raised a nation of edumazkated Idjits.
ReplyDeleteYes, a true hero. No question!
—————
“You do need electrolysis. What my system has done is take advantage of THE RESIDUE OF ELECTROLYSIS.” (t = 1:10-1:23 of the long video in the linked article.
https://globalnews.ca/news/8839877/buffalo-shooting-security-guard-aaron-salter/
I have no idea of what “residue” he’s talking about, I can’t imagine any being good for his engine. (I assume he’s not referring to Hydrogen, but to some particulate, otherwise why would he need agitation?)
Also, note that many “greenies” are (occasionally correctly) worried about water shortages. And if everyone is running their cars on water (assuming it could be done), where is that water going to come from?
There’s a reason why college students need to have thermodynamics pounded into their heads. It’s just not intuitively obvious enough, even for a bright and technically handy (and very courageous and decent) person to come up with on his own.
I’m guessing he was hoodwinked into it by people who know it can’t be done - note the name of his company begins with “AWS.” Here’s what that means.
https://www.hartenergy.com/news/aws-launches-clean-energy-accelerator-startups-193969
Ironic that a law enforcement officer would try to violate the law of thermodynamics that strictly forbids getting something for nothing. More proof that none of us are immune to a sophisticated scam.
I knew a guy who was experimenting with a hydrogen generator on his truck. He quit after several tries and several instances of singing his facial hair off...
ReplyDeletei want to hear singing facial hair. Maybe singeing?
DeleteFor all you metallic hat wearing individuals out there remember one very important thing; a metal object is an antenna. When it is grounded, it is a shield. So, remember to run a ground strap from your foil hat down to the sole of each foot so that you are grounded as you walk. Absent grounding, the metal hat acts as an antenna and can amplify energy in and out.
ReplyDeleteAnon@709 Nitpick: the antenna will redirect, not amplify energy No free lunch. Yeah, I'm being pedantic, I blame the tequila.
DeleteOn-topic: heck yeah, a combo of O2 and H2 will burn like crazy! Too bad all the real-world physics thingies get in the way of the would-inventor's dream.
Look up the mysterious death of Stanley Meyer. Another water fuel cell inventor.
ReplyDeleteWhy?
DeleteAre you spreading FUD, cupcake?
Shooter drove a long way to wind up at That store,with That security guard.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with the PhD's. While their statements are correct there are some assumptions. I haven't studied this thing in detail, but in general, if batteries are used to produce hydrogen via electroless, this system will work until the batteries are discharged. You can therefore keep going until you either run out of water or the batteries are completely discharged and no longer produce hydrogen. Perpetual motion would be using the alternator , perhaps through an inverter, to produce the hydrogen from electroless. I'm using my phone so forgive extra spaces, etc. This guy's concept is not useless as one could consider discharged batteries as a consumable like burned or combusted fuel.
ReplyDeleteThe presence of hydrogen gas indicates the battery is being overcharged. The chemistry is no longer completely reversible and water needs to be added. Read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery
DeleteAbout half-way down you will see the following: Overcharging with high charging voltages generates oxygen and hydrogen gas by electrolysis of water, which bubbles out and is lost. The design of some types of lead–acid battery allows the electrolyte level to be inspected and topped up with pure water to replace any that has been lost this way.
Was living in Reno in late 80's and Reno gazette journal ran an article about a scientist in Spark,NV had developed such a system, if I recall this fella was the one who figured out how to turn sawdust into wood pellets, he had successfully figured out how to do it and said he would not sell his invention to anyone and offered to convert anyone's auto for I think $1500.00 he had a catalyst that had to be added in order to change the water to hydrogen, the city of Reno took him up on it and they converted a city bus to run on water, I remember seeing that bus and they had an s-10 Chevy chase truck to follow it around in case of breakdowns or assistance, if i remember right the bus made so much power it was putting a strain on running gear, then Caterpillar wanted to test it out on their engines an eventually the US military came knocking an never heard any more about it, if I remember this scientist died suddenly of a mysterious incident, I have tried to google and can find any trace of this article, so maybe i just was just dreaming.
ReplyDeleteJust came back here and saw the big comment number (there were only about 8 when I commented before) so I checked it out. About the normal range from "this is BS" to "Yeah, my neighbor's cousin's old gym teacher did this then he disappeared without a trace!".
ReplyDeleteAgain, this has been around longer than that Nigerian Prince. As with most utter scams there is a grain of truth, you can extract hydrogen gas from water, but the math here does not work at all. Running a piston engine on hydrogen requires a shit ton more than you could EVER produce with a little homemade kit, several orders of magnitude more.
Not only does this particular version not work, none of them work because it cannot be done, not even in Nevada.