A little late to the game, I know.
Oil and propane are outrageous as the spring rolls on here in S. NH. It's still a bit chilly
at night and I'm trying to keep the heat off as much as possible.
There are a few geothermal companies in the area and one of peers at work is having it installed
at his house. I have seen info on open loop systems that use the house hold well water
as the supply. The forced hot air oil burned covers that main area of the house with propane
fireplaces supplying heat in other areas.
There is also a large tax deduction for the system.
I know, I know, the best time to have done it was during the $1.79 a gallon gas and mean tweet
era.
Just wondering what the thoughts are from those that have experience.
Thanks,
Irish.
had a uncle that did the whole geo heating/cooling thing back in the 1980-early 1990. he loved the thing. but that was in eastern ky hill country. I don't think it got as cold as it does where you are.
ReplyDeletehere in the pa highlands, I put in two wood stoves after moving up here. locals told me I wanted pellet stoves instead.
but pellet stoves need electric to run for most of them. wood stove does not. and the power goes out up here quite often
in winter, storms, drunk drivers, whatever.2 years ago, the power was out close to 2 days and a bit.
we stayed warm here and I cooked a few meals on the stoves as well. can't say the same for the locals though.
wood heat is a bit of work for sure, but it damn near always works. and it is cheaper than running the damn noise box oil
burning hot air heater for sure. oil is over 5 bucks per gallon around here now. as for wood to burn, it all around me up here
just needs a bit of work to use.
Live in SD and we've had geothermal since 2008 with backup hotdog cookers in the flue. 6 well loops @ 180 ft deep each = 6 ton cooling (over designed). Furnace fan is two speed. Loop fluid is propylene glycol as there is a desuperheater for the hot water heater as well. Typical on time for heat or cool runs a bit longer but not bad. Main heat we use is forced air wood stove. Avg. Energy bill is about $200/Mo which includes the shop. We are all electric. Had the compressor go out few yrs ago, wasn't cheap. All said, would do it again in a heartbeat.
ReplyDeletelike he said. I haven't done it but a friend has. Ran the tubing throughout his concrete floors too. West of the Mississippi there is more geothermal heat than east. Depending where you are decides what options you have. My friend did not drill wells but buried the piping at a sufficient depth and just uses water. At about 5 or 6 feet temperature is a 56 degrees constant. Heating just requires enough BTUs to come up from the 56. I wish that I could provide more details but I don't have them. He is in the mid-Atlantic. I doubt that you want to replace your floors or add a cistern as some do but digging a field and throwing in some piping is something I would consider if I were to buy an existing home. I plan to build in the near future and will likely have a more extensive system. Lots of information on the interwebs
ReplyDelete"...At about 5 or 6 feet, temperature is a 56 degrees constant..."
DeleteMy Revelation happened in the 1950s at Sonora Desert Museum near Tucson, Arizona.
One exhibit was underground, a replica of a cave from many millennia ago.
.
The outside temperature was the standard 100°f.
Walking down into the 'cave', the temperature immediately dropped to a refreshing 70°f or so.
And the exhibit was open at both ends -- big enough for a small car to drive through -- with plenty of air exchange.
.
Since then, I question the standard household construction of:
* above-ground, using brute force to maintain a comfort zone,
and
* wood.
.
Fact is, I think every wood structure needs a Surgeon General warning label:
* 'used as directed, may result in disfigurement and death'.
.
An aside:
I grew-up in the mountains east of Sacramento in an adobe home with slate floors.
The walls are about 18"/.5m thick, steel roof and doors.
I remember the winter sun warming the floor through the yuge windows during the day, then the floor radiating this stored warmth all evening.
.
I think 'working with the system' makes more sense than trying to brute force with iffy -- 'Central Committee' controlled -- supplies of electricity and petroleum, or cutting and transport and storage and burning wood then dealing with the residue in the box and chimney.
Opinion.
Had an open loop system that I put in at our previous house. Our well water was almost the ideal temp to handle both heating and cooling in south central Idaho. Summertime temps were often up to 100 degrees or so and the wintertime, though sometimes moderate, could also wind up with continuous snow on the ground for three months. System worked great across the twelve years we lived there. No electric coils for "emer" heat, just a pair of propane fireplaces which were rarely used, and even then primarily for effect rather than heat. In some places you can dump an open loop system into a ditch, we had a second injection well drilled for that purpose so the water went right back into the ground. With the exception of our cooking stove which was LP (and the aforementioned fireplaces) everything else was electric. We also had solar panels and a small wind turbine and 8-9 months a year had no electric bill other than the standard power company service charges (we were grid tie and got credit for energy sent back to the grid). Overall, a very efficient way to heat and cool if the water temp from the well is right. The guy that did our install had a closed loop system at his house, stunningly efficient since it just ran a very small circulation pump to move the fluid (propylene glycol) through the lines (versus pumping water up from the well like ours) but also had a much higher up front cost as he had to dig the equivalent of an olympic sized swimming pool (maybe two) and bury several hundred feet of pipe for the heat exchange. I'd definitely do it all again (except for the wind turbine, that tech hasn't caught up for the homeowner yet).
ReplyDeleteWe 3 use dedicated wells 200 ft. deep. Works great and would do it over again. I really question if the house well would be able to do much good unless t was a hand dug old well with a much larger water capacity than a normal drilled well. Provides all of our heating and cooling except for a little supplemental heat in my basement office. It is still tied to the grid with its compressor and fan, so you will need some back up capability.
ReplyDeleteRichard
Small (homeowner) systems rarely pay for themselves as they are expensive to buy, install, maintain. Check for possible State or local permitting issues before you blow much more time & effort on this.
ReplyDeleteMust take exception to your point about maintenance. At the most basic level you have a pump to circulate the water and a heat exchanger. Nothing like as complex as a condenser/furnace combo most people have.
DeleteMatthew,
DeleteLooking at the bigger picture:
* How expensive to buy/install/maintain is a distant supply of petroleum and electricity, plus the -- vulnerable -- infrastructure to get it to the cheap machine in the home?
.
Keyword:
* Central Committee decides for you, comrade
(aka 'Read the wrong words, speak the wrong words, meet with the wrong people, think the wrong thought, and you may be moved to bottom of supply list.')
Love, love, love our geothermal heating/cooling! Installed in 2015. Three 325 foot loops. 3,900 sf house. Heating/cooling cost during highest use times stays around 250$ per month. Winter temps get below freezing, summer temps average 80-90 degrees with high humidity. Our house climate is now comfortable and we do have to be niggardly with the thermostat.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_3_gsgsnk
ReplyDeleteyou maybe able to use this idea
Maybe its just me but I don't get it. You have the folks saying how wonderful the system is and then saying that their monthly electric bills were $200-250 a month, that's not not any lower than my Central AC and gas furnace here usage in southern Colorado
ReplyDeleteBingo. Same here, pretty large home and combined gas and electric rarely over 250 and usually less. Gas higher in winter and electric in summer.
DeleteI know people who love these systems, but they are subsidized by those who do not have them. During power shortages, local radio announcements state not to run your circulation pump more than once every 4 hours to save power for the utility. They are subsidized here at $0.05/kW while the regular use is $0.12 - 0.14 (Grr!!). (I know cheaper than CA but we don't all make $150+/ hr either!) A co-worker of mine with a new house and zone heating was complaining about a $250/ bill. At his kW usage my bill would have been $425. This was 10 - 12 years ago. This is in the Northern plains of the US - one of the coldest areas of the country. Get one if you want, but keep in mind your a F'in over your neighbors and other taxpayers who do not have one as they are paying part of your bill.
ReplyDeleteAround my part of central Texas, the difficulty of drilling the small water line holes is what determines whether or not it is cost effective. Rocky hard ground makes it too expensive to compete.
ReplyDeleteI have been using geothermal heat pump for 30 years. I would not use anything else. Heating/cooling bill for entire house averages $450-$500 per year. Being a heat transfer system only, it is very efficient.
ReplyDeleteP.S. Closed loop system with 4 wells 160 feet deep & 4 ton unit in Appalachian Mtn Region of SW Pa.
DeleteI had placed an open loop system ( pump and dump ) and ran into a year that the water table in my well could not support the demand of the geo system. It worked fantastic until this hiccup happened. I have 2 systems one for main level and one for upstairs. Total draw of both systems when running is 11gpm and 4gpm upstairs. I don’t typically use it for heat , as I use a coal stoker stove ( like to support the hard workers in the coal region of Pa, good people and hate paying utilities all their BS charges and taxes ) great heat! I was able to use the 4gpm upstairs system to cool sufficiently on the majority of the days in hottest summer months . The solution to this problem was to drill deeper well ,lower the pump ,to have a larger reserve column of water or convert to closed loop . If I had to do it over I would have gone closed loop from day 1. But the geothermal was very economical for cooling.
ReplyDeleteWe live in northeast Florida. Have had a water-to-air heat pump for 22 years. We have an open loop system and discharge to a creek, others use discharge for lawn watering. Had to replace unit in 2015 and got a tax break due to the incredible SEER rating that these units offer. One potential issue is determining who to call when it fails - the A/C guy, a plumber, or the well company. On several occasions I've had them all blame each other. We have a dedicated shallow well, only 75 feet, for the heat pump. You need a lot a water, the rule of thumb for our units is 2 gallons per ton of HVAC per minute. The water does not need to be potable but we need . We have a 650 foot well for the house. The up-front costs are higher for heat pump and the well can be expensive to drill. Good luck.
ReplyDeleteThese are heat pumps, and the efficiency falls off rapidly as the surrounding temperature goes to freezing and lower. You need to check that for the system you are considering. Generally the water pipes must go below the frost line at least, which is 4 to 5 ft in southern NH.
ReplyDeleteWe have an air heat pump here in north central Ohio. Our weather is similar to southern NH and eastern MA. When the air temperature falls below about 35 F, which is usual in Jan/Mar, our system switches over to propane and a very high efficiency propane furnace. Other heat pump systems have a supplementary electrical heating element for cold temperatures.
Another issue is corrosion. That depends strongly on your local water chemistry. Some ground waters in MA and NH are very soft and very corrosive.
Finally, heat pumps are two way systems. Your system ought to provide cooling in the summer as well as heating in the winter. I grew up in Methuen, Nantasket, and Dorchester, and my family is in Pelham/Salem, so I know you need cooling, too.
In New England or any place cold and snowy it is pretty pricey. How long till it pencils out on energy saving? Sooner now with gas and electric prices up, but still a long time. It might be cheaper to just move where it is milder in the winter.
ReplyDeleteI have a heat pump and it is very good, but I still have a wood stove and a few cords of dry wood just in ccase. If the power goes out, that wood stove works like a charm. If it is cold out, I like having the fire anyway.
ReplyDeleteIt represents a substantial outlay to have one put in after you have built your house. Near me (near Nashua) Skillings and sons does the drilling. Will you live long enough to pay back the initial expense or at least break even? I would get a couple of quotes. I can ask a co worker whom he used for the work.
ReplyDeleteI don't have experience with geothermal, but I do have some experience with passive solar. I think passive solar works quite well to cut heating costs.
ReplyDeleteMy parents live in a house build from recycle barn boards in ~1900. I don't know how much the move to a ground loop AC improved their system because they also discovered that there was no insulation in the house.... but... their electric bills went from $200 per month to under $60.
ReplyDeleteThey did most of it themselves by buying a used ditch witch to bury the piping. Their loop covers an area of 100ft x 200ft spaced 5ft apart.
Of course, if you don't have a large field, you can use an out-of-service well if its deep enough and has water..
My brother or one of these in when he built his house (modular) in... 2006? Around then. He laid it in with the septic system, so didn't pay anything really for the pipes. Loves it. Only problem he had with it was the ductwork, 'cause he put it in himself (the hookup to the modular bits anyway) and didn't do it right the first two times. Typical.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, it's cheaper than any other way of heating. And cooling, though we don't do much of that in the Colorado mountains.
Honestly? If he'd need to drill wells or dig to bury it, I don't think it would have been worth it. We've got hard rocks firmly embedded in tough clay, which is apparently even harder to drill through than equivalent solid rock would be.
My son bought an existing house with a large, finished walkout basement about 15 years ago. It was built when nuclear power electricity was going to be cheap enough to not be metered. Ha! Electric baseboard heat. Anyhoo, he got enough grants and tax breaks that a total price of 16K reduced to 8K or so. He installed a backup generator himself (he's an electrician). He rarely has the generator run, the geothermal keeps the house at the same temperature year-around at way less electrical usage than previously of course. Since then he had some kind of minor fix required last year that he should have been warned was coming (warranty ran out for that sort of thing after 10 years).
ReplyDeleteHe's otherwise totally satisfied. It has been pretty much pain-free for 15 years. As a side benefit it has 2 hot water heaters as heat dumps and even with 2 kids and a busy washer he has never run out of hot water. His whole system is about 15% overbuilt. He says he'll never have another house without it if he can help it.
I suppose it depends on the tax breaks and grants compared to overall cost. His is a loop although they considered drilling a vertical well. Loop was cheaper.
His part of Illinois has temps over 100 and below -10.
You're far better off with a mini split heat pump.
ReplyDeleteDon’t call Lake Sunapee Heating.
ReplyDeleteThey botched a buddies install so bad.
He ended up calling another company. Found out they installed stuff backwards. It was a mess and cost him quite abit to get squared away.
Oh, because of the botched install, whatever blew, put 4” of water across his entire basement floor. He has a huge basement.
Thats all i got chief.
AnnonyMouse: Had two geothermal systems back in MI. First was a pump and dump. Ran the dump to a horse tank for our horses and the tank was connected to a drain field in the paddock. Great as the horses always had fresh water and did not need a tank heater in the winter. Unfortunately, one of the new homes built in the area put in a well that contaminated all the wells. We then switched to a ground loop system with 5 loops. Geo provided both heat and cooling season dependent. Our electric company provided a special rate for the geothermal heating. We had two hot water tanks, One which remained disconnected unless we had company and needed extra hot water. That tank allowed the water to warm to ambient temperature before it went into the tank that assisted heating the hot water from the geothermal. All in all, very satisfied with our system and monthly heating/cooling was far less than oil or LPG. Initial cost was much, but basically paid for itself in less than 10 years.
ReplyDelete" You have the folks saying how wonderful the system is and then saying that their monthly electric bills were $200-250 a month" wow, those energy bills are high, mine are less than $100 for electric during peak in august/sept and $230 for gas in feb peak, oh wait, I am a cheap mf. Off peak electric and gas are $100 total/per month.
ReplyDeleteWith efficiencies of modern air-to-air heat pumps improving, not sure the expense of geo can be justified.
ReplyDeleteAir-to-air heat pumps are great for temps above ~ 35F. At lower temps they lose efficiency and the supplemental heat (usually direct electrical) kicks in. One advantage is that they can run in a/c mode if you have hot weather in summer.
DeleteI managed the renovation of a 11k sq. ft. remodel in D.C. in 2010. This was the largest LEED remodel at the time. We took the HERS rating from 200 to 50. This means when we started the house it was twice as inefficient as new houses and when we finished it was twice as good. There have been no problems with the system to date. Closed loop is the only way I’ve ever done it and I’ve managed the installation of geo for 12 years.
ReplyDeleteHeat and cool only, radiant floor heat, hot water helper, I’ve installed them all. All the extra do-hickeys cost money and drive up maintenance cost. KISS. To avoid supplemental heat source, spray foam the attic and ensure envelope is sealed from air movement. I’ve done this on my personal house with an air to air compressor and have convinced the children to do it on their houses, utility bills are cut in half. If you’re getting a tax credit then geo is worth it, if no tax credit available a high seer air to air compressor for houses under 3000 feet works just as good. Larger houses with larger bank accounts do better with the Geo systems.
What would you recommend for a design/build on empty lot with plenty of yard for horizontal loops or option of ground water about 150 feet down?
DeleteOn a closed loop ground water proximity is not an issue. I have heard of horizontal loops working just fine at a depth of 4 feet, this allows any landscaping to occur with no potential loop damage. Again, 3000 ft.² and under you can use a good air to air Multi speed compressor and multi speed air handler. The key to its efficiency and not needing supplemental heat is the spray foam and envelope package. Another thing with the spray foam, greater dehumidification will be required. The system we used was a Honeywell 90 DL this was in line with the air handler and duck work. Ensure the installer provides for enough loop. I have heard of situations where the loop was too short and could not recover fast enough
DeleteThank You Sir.
DeleteI included the depth to ground water as some systems use a closed loop into the ground water as it is more efficient at transferring heat to the glycol solution.
Take a look at this guy in Nebraska (https://greenhouseinthesnow.com/) I think NE anyway. Minimal energy cost to move the air.
You have to weigh the initial costs, which are usually many times the cost of a conventional system. Well costs vary greatly across the country, and from one locality to the next. Ask local installers for examples of installations in your area and research the "real" costs long term.
ReplyDeleteWe're ex builders with over 30 years in the construction business, and our experience has been that generally the added install costs deter clients from geothermal as it takes too many years to recoup.
Thanks everyone for the comments and input. I'm guessing that the geo thermal route around here with all the
ReplyDeleteledge and granite isn't worth it. We have open field acreage bit I doubt we could get the depth we need for trenches.
Wood boiler or minisplits may be the route I need to investigate.
Irish
Best use of money is ensuring good energy envelope. If you can spray from the attic, you would be surprised how much better your existing system will operate. Don’t forget about the dehumidification when you do this.
DeleteI spent 30 years in the insulation industry and back up the above comment as the best way to go. I didn't use spray foam and would recommend dense pack cellulose instead. Foam breaks down over the years, and ants love it. My daughter is carrying on the family business and installs cellulose. She's currently in Errol dense packing a large new home. Building envelope efficiency and proper ventilation are the best bang for the buck. Over the course of my carrier I've seen and participated in some wild and unique projects.
DeleteIf you have access to wood and Outdoor Wood Boiler is the way to go. I use it exclusively in winter for heat and hot water.
ReplyDeleteIrishman,
ReplyDeleteJust in case you haven’t heard this.
Go for it. In really cold places and really hot places, it makes economical sense.
The tech has changed a little. Back in the old days, a homeowner had to have several wells drilled and used a glycol/water mix. Now a days, a company can use a backhoe to dig trenches for the loops and use 100% water. Like all tech there is trade offs.
So, …
If you are older, you might not see your return on investment, ten to fifteen years.
You will still need supplemental/emergency heat, think wood burning stove at another $3,000.
Small house lot = drilled wells = greater expense. Several acres of open land = trenches = less expensive.
In the old days, companies used specialized pumps. They went out of business, no repair parts.
Either way, …
Find a reputable company, using common parts, that has been around awhile
Use a closed loop system, not open loop
Peace, Benedict Arnold
I always thought it might work very well if you had an adjacent pond or river. You could either pump-and-dump in a recycle mode or arrange the coils in the bottom of the pond. I grew up in NW Florida so there would be little risk of freezing the heat sink as ambient is so high year around. Cooling would the larger load.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm moving to the boondocks in the Philippines once I retire. They have the fifth highest electric rates in the world. Load would be strictly aircon. Most homes just have individual units for the the bedrooms for sleeping comfort - you can make do with ceiling fans on a generator if the grid is down, as it often is.
But hand-digging wells is cheap and common although the water is seldom potable.
This is wildly different climate than the poster's.
You are not referring to real Geo-thermal heating as there are no thermal water sources in NH. You are talking more about a heat pump type of system. The problem that you will find is that the laws of physics and thermodynamics will make it not worthwhile to use a heat pump system as the system cannot raise the temperature of your environment any higher than the temperature of the water being used.
ReplyDeleteWe are on our second closed loop system here in Ohio. First one lasted 23 years and probably had some time left but there were incentives to install so we went for it. With a closed loop system, you don't need access to water. We had 3 110' holes drilled in our backyard at time of house construction. Closed loop piping runs up and down the holes and back inside to the unit. Even with the loss of a special geothermal rate with our local utility, we are paying a budget bill of $170 per month with no gas or oil even hooked up - all electric. Everyone likes to talk about huge cost differences compared to a gas furnace, but during times of high natural gas prices, the payback is extremely fast. I don't think there is any more than a 25-30% cost differential. Hope this helps.
ReplyDeleteThis guy in Nebraska is next to brilliant. No well, no water, no pump. Just some long runs of black corrugated drainpipe and fan power. Heats his green house and supplies a constant air chamber around the heat pump/ AC for his home to run at peak efficiency all year round. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_3_gsgsnk
ReplyDelete